Questions & Answers

Macleod: Dr. Martin Luther King, the Reverend Martin Luther King, Junior, speaking on Social Justice and the Emerging New Age. Dr. King is now receiving a standing ovation from the audience assembled here at the Western Michigan University Read Field House.

Here now, is President Miller.

Miller : Dr. Martin Luther King, we thank you for your presentation. The audience has indicated its enthusiastic reception of your remarks. I might say here before I read the first question that Western Michigan University gained the name of University de jure in 1957. What is much more difficult an accomplishment is to get it de facto. Certainly, one aspect of it is to have a faculty and to have a student body that can look at one another and see men and women and only men and women and not a social class, or an economic class or a race or a creed or a national origin. This is what we seek. This is what a university means. I like to think that we are making significant headway in that direction. I wouldn't say we've reached the millennium but this is the goal and this is a proper goal of a university, the only goal that it can seek in this respect. The question that I have here is:

Dr. King, your earnest attempts to help the Negro people have earned the respect of many, many Americans, but faced with the rising tide of Negro indignation and anger, how long do you believe they will follow your peaceful submission, turn the other cheek philosophy? Please discuss the possibility of a nation-wide riot between the Negro and the white race.\

Dr. King: I don't see any prospect for a nation-wide riot between the Negro and white race. Certainly, if we can continue to make progress in civil rights and remove the conditions that make for discontent and that make for anger and resentment within the Negro community, we will not even have the possibility of this type of negative and tragic development in our nation. Fortunately, the Negro has been willing, up to this point, to follow the nonviolent method. I'm not saying the 20 million Negroes of America believe in nonviolence as a way of life or as a creed, but I think the vast majority of Negroes have at least come to see that this is the most practical technique to use at this time. It would not only be immoral, but it would be impractical for the Negro to turn to violence. We have neither the techniques nor the instruments of violence. Many of our opponents would welcome this development in Alabama and Mississippi and some other states in the deep south. I don't think that violence is the answer. I don't think that the vast majority of Negroes feel this. We have made our greatest gains through nonviolent insistence.

I think that when one comes to see the true meaning of nonviolence, and to see that this is a strong method and not a do-nothing method. It doesn't mean that you sit down and just passively accept evil. You really stand up against it, but you come to see that you have a more powerful weapon when you stand up against it through nonviolent methods. You stand up against it without using methods of violence. So by boycotts, if necessary, by picketing, if necessary, by sit-ins, if necessary, by mass pilgrimages, if necessary--all of these things are methods of nonviolent direct action in which individuals are able to do something and yet, they are doing it nonviolently. I believe firmly that the Negro has come to see the power of this approach, even though he has had a legitimate summer of discontent in 1963, there will be no widespread turn to violence on the part of the Negro in 1964.

Miller: Dr. King, another question, do you feel it is socially just to place a colored person in a high position because of his color, bypassing in the same act many white men who have priority because of their seniority?

King: Well I guess there are two things that must be said about this whole question and this whole problem of preferential treatment for Negroes and hiring policies. First, I think we must all see that there is a general problem in our economy and the nation must face it aggressively. This problem has been brought into being because of automation and automation must be grappled with and used for good rather than to put a lot of people out of work. Now the government, working with industry and labor, must deal with this problem.

So the first thing I'm concerned about is full employment for everybody. Now the Negro has suffered more because of automation than whites because the Negro, with limited educational opportunities and having been denied apprenticeship training in so many instances and outright discrimination, has been limited to unskilled and semi-skilled labor. In the day of automation, these are the jobs that are passing away so the Negro gets a double for outright discrimination and automation doing away with certain jobs. I'm concerned about full employment.

On the other hand, I think we must honestly face a fact if one gets behind in a race, he must eternally remain behind or run faster than the man in front. You've got to give him the equipment to catch up. Now the fact is that the Negro has had 244 years of slavery in America and working without wages and then he's had a hundred years of segregation and mistreatment in generally. Now, he's faced with a very serious problem and that is that he is required to be as productive as people who have not had these conditions and the only thing that a society can do for individuals who have been deprived of something is to give them a little special treatment. Now you don't put anybody out of a job, but you just make it possible for the individuals who are behind to catch up.

Our nation sees the necessity as any nation to call certain men in the armed forces. That deprives them of opportunities they would have had. They would have gone on uninterrupted with their education and other things. They go away and stay years. Maybe if a war is out, they have to go right through that. They suffered and sacrificed, so the nation gets the GI bill of rights. This is sort of a compensatory special treatment, and this man can come home and can maybe start a business with appropriations by the government that the people who didn't go can't get. Maybe he can build a home with a loan from the government that other people can't get. He can go to college with appropriations from the government that other people can't get. Because he was deprived of something from the society, it owned him something.

I think this is all we're saying that we have been deprived of something as a people and we have been crippled because of this. We feel that America ought to give us a crutch until we can come to the point of walking on our own rights. Many are going to walk. They're trying everyday, but the conditions facing them are so difficult that it's almost impossible. So, I would answer the question by saying, not putting anybody out of work is the answer, but that the government should certainly go out of the way to give some sort of compensatory crash program in order for the Negro to catch up, we need a sort of domestic Marshall Plan in order to bring the Negro into the mainstream of American life and this is all we're saying. [APPLAUSE]

Miller: Dr. King, question: Charges have been made that you wrecked the chances of agreement in Birmingham, and in Albany, Georgia for the sake of publicity. Would you comment?

King: Well, I don't ever know how to answer these charges that you wreck things for publicity. These jails are pretty uncomfortable in the south. I would much rather get publicity in another matter if publicity is the end and the goal. But, very seriously, we are dead-serious about the struggle in the south and the determination to be free. I never move without any desire to get publicity as an individual, and I never do it through my organization. We do it because we feel, as I said in my talk, that action is necessary in order to solve this problem.

The minute you act and take a stand against an unjust system, the individuals in the privileged group are going to resist to the end and they are going to say many nasty things about you. They're going to say you're doing it for publicity, but we can't stop for that reason. We've got to go on to redeem the soul of our nation. The only way that we can do this is to go out to solve this problem. I think Birmingham is a better place in which to live today. It is far from where it ought to be. The problem is far from solved, but I think it is a better city and a better situation for Negroes because we had this struggle, because we went on and said that these things must be done. I can say the same thing for Albany, Georgia. There wasn't any wreckage in an agreement, but there has been an absolute achievement of desegregating facilities in both of these communities.

Miller: Dr. King there are more questions here than I am sure we're going to be able to get through, but I'm just picking them out here after professor Clark and professor Lawson took them over here. Do you think it is the older generation of the south that is standing up so ardently against integration as opposed to the younger generation who actually may be pro-integration but are so strongly influenced by the older folks they can do nothing?

King: I think there is a great deal of truth in this. I think that many of the young, white people of the south are much more open minded on this issue and would solve this problem if many of the elders would move aside. Many of these people have been so conditioned to the old order and to these prejudices that they will probably never change and they try to instill them in their children. I think there is hope in the situation because there are young people--I would say a growing group of young people--willing to see the moral issues involved in this struggle and who are willing to take a stand. We don't have enough and we don't have many who are willing to take public stands, but certainly their private opinions lean more toward compliance with the law of the land and accepting the inevitable and they are coming to see futility of massive resistance to desegregation.

Miller : Next question: Dr. King, you claim you're not a communist, then why do you associate yourself with such organizations as the National Guardians which has been declared subversive by the state of California and is listed in the guide to subversive organizations and publications published by the United States government.

King: I'm very sorry I can't answer that. I've never heard of the organization of National Guardian. I regret that I can't answer the question. In all seriousness, I may be connected with an organization that I don't know anything about, but this is news to me because I am very scrutinizing in organizations that I'm connected with and this is my first knowledge of the National Guardian organization.

Miller: Don't you feel that integration can only be started and realized in the Christian church, not in schools or by other means? This would be a means of seeing just who are true Christians.

King: As a preacher, I would certainly have to agree with this. I must admit that I have gone through those moments when I was greatly disappointed with the church and what it has done in this period of social change. We must face the fact that in America, the church is still the most segregated major institution in America. At 11:00 on Sunday morning when we stand and sing and Christ has no east or west, we stand at the most segregated hour in this nation. This is tragic. Nobody of honesty can overlook this. Now, I'm sure that if the church had taken a stronger stand all along, we wouldn't have many of the problems that we have. The first way that the church can repent, the first way that it can move out into the arena of social reform is to remove the yoke of segregation from its own body. Now, I'm not saying that society must sit down and wait on a spiritual and moribund church as we've so often seen. I think it should have started in the church, but since it didn't start in the church, our society needed to move on. The church, itself, will stand under the judgement of God. Now that the mistake of the past has been made, I think that the opportunity of the future is to really go out and to transform American society, and where else is there a better place than in the institution that should serve as the moral guardian of the community. The institution that should preach brotherhood and make it a reality within its own body.

Miller: You say that the Negro is economically deprived because of segregation, then why is it that the Jewish citizens of America who have also been segregated, yet they have become a part of our higher economic class?

King: I think we have to say two thing here. I must make it very clear in the beginning that I'm against discrimination and segregation whether it's toward a Negro, or Mexican or a Jew or Catholic or wherever it is. I think injustice toward any people is a threat to justice for all people. I'm against discrimination. The Jews have certainly confronted discrimination in this country. I don't think anybody can deny that, but nobody can deny on the other hand that there has been a different type of discrimination and segregation faced by the Jews in this country. The fact is that the Negro can never escape his high visibility. He is the victim of a caste system, it's not only a class system, it's a caste system. He is born into this thing and because of this high visibility. If he were a Jewish person and wanted to change his name, he could do that maybe and escape some of the problems of America. The Jew has not faced the same type of segregation. In America, I think we must be honest enough to say that while our Jewish brothers were slaves thousands of years ago, the Jew was never slave in the United States. The Negro had 244 years, as I said earlier, of outright slavery while he worked without wages, and this threw him behind in everything. The Negro is just human enough to be affected by these things so it has been a color problem and the high visibility, that the Negro cannot escape, that haunts him at all times. Until there is a removal of the prejudices that keep these things alive, we still have the problem before us.

Miller: You talk of soul force and love as ways of social freedom and justice. You also speak of legislation as a means for this justice. But just what kind of active and definite action, can I, the sole black, or I the sole white do on a scale large to make any difference? Are demonstrations the only outward means?

King: No, I would say that there are many other ways that we can work to solve this problem. I tried to mention some. I mentioned the legislative approach in seeking to bring about strong civil-rights legislation. The fact is at this point, we face not only a recalcitrant south, with its southern dixiecrats, we face a recalcitrant north with the hypocrisy of some right-wing Republicans. The cause of justice has been betrayed by this coalition of southern dixiecrats and right-wing northern Republicans. They've gotten together and defeated every serious movement and civil rights legislation. I think that one who is really concerned about this and wants to see the problem solved will bring about the kind of work in his community that will bring about pressure on a congressman in Michigan who will refuse to sign a discharge petition under some strange notion. Then, of course, there are other ways like working through the courts. I have certainly supported this because we have gained many very powerful decisions that have helped us to move on in the struggle. There's also a need to have voter registration drives in communities all across the nation so that more Negroes will register to vote. I think this will do a great deal to liberalize the political conscience. All of these things can be used and I don't think it's an "either or" approach. I think it's a "both and." It is both demonstrations and these other approaches that are so very important. I think that all of them working together and supplementing each other, we do have a more powerful thrust.

Miller: Do you believe that de facto segregation in our large city schools should be changed by transporting children into schools which could be some distance from their homes? Might not the tremendous cost be better applied to remove the causes of de facto segregation?

King: I lean toward the view that it is a very tragic thing for young people, children, to grow up association, communication only people of their race. Prejudices develop from the very beginning because of this. Narrow provincial views emerge because of this. I think the only way to break this kind of provincialism is to bring people together on a level of genuine intergroup and interpersonal living. I do not think we can afford to wait until all of the problems of residential segregation are solved before we grapple the problem of segregation in educational institutions. Therefore, I lean toward the idea that segregation must be removed from schools all over this country, even if it means transporting students from one district to another. For I do not think that residential segregation must be used as an excuse for the perpetuation of segregation in educational institutions. A court in New York rendered a decision in this line. The U.S. Supreme Court has not ruled on it. I certainly agree that New York court that residential segregation should not prevent the constant moving on toward ending segregation in educational institutions in the public school system, even if it means transporting students from one district to another. I think I would have to agree this.

Miller: There are a number of questions in the group here asking Dr. King to comment on the Black Muslim movement. I have turned to Dr. Clark and said that I thought you had answered this when you said that you weren't for black domination or white domination, but if you care to comment any further, since there are a number of questions.

King: I'll make the very brief point about this movement. First, this movement has not yet appealed to many Negroes in this country. This movement has appealed to a small number when you think of the fact that you have some 20 million Negroes in the United States and the best estimates would say that you have only about 75,000 Negroes that have actually joined all of the black nationalist groups put together, the largest being the Muslim movement. It has not yet appealed to vast majority of Negroes, and frankly, I don't think it will because of its doctrine of racial separation rather than racial integration. On the other hand, I think we must see that this movement did not come into being out of thin air. It is symptomatic of the deeper unrest and discontent of Negroes all over this country. I think it is a challenge, for people of good will, both Negro and white, to work bold determination to get rid of the conditions that brought this movement into being. As long as you have the conditions alive, movements like this will be springing up. The more the conditions are removed, the more the influence of such movements will diminish. I reiterate finally that from a philosophical point of view and basic moral point of view, I would certainly disagree the philosophy of this movement because I do feel that racial separation is bad for everybody. I do feel that racial integration is good for everybody. I do feel that a doctrine of black supremacy is an injurious to a society as a doctrine of white supremacy.

Miller: I am interested and hopeful that civil justice will be voted favorably in congress. In order to do so, it will require almost 100 percent of the votes of the representatives in the northern, midwestern, and western states. Why, therefore, do advocates of your program go into peace-loving communities and in their remarks state that our demands will be met or there will be violence?

King: Well there are times that you must try to analyze the social situation. Of course, I hate to talk about violence and its possibilities because I have found so often, and this is true in the south to a great degree, that those who talk loudest about violence and predict violence are really engaged in an unconscious invitation to violence. We've seen this on the part of politicians predicting violence and they were really inviting violence so I hate to talk about violence and the possibility of violence if such isn't done. But there are moments when you must be honest enough to say that your commitment to nonviolence and your preaching of nonviolence will fall on deaf ears if something isn't done. I've had to say that in Birmingham, Alabama and other places, that something needs to be done to give the Negro a new sense of hope. If not, all of my pleas, and I will continue, but all of my pleas of nonviolence may fall on deaf ears. Now this is just analyzing a possibility and not at all saying that this should be. I think there should be a civil rights bill. I think that everybody should work for it, and I think that we must face that fact that if there isn't a civil rights bill, it will set us back in race relations in the United States and we will have a real social disruption. Honestly impels us to admit this and I don't think we help the situation by not coming out facing the facts of life.

Miller: Dr. King has a plane at just a few minutes after 10:00, therefore, I think this will have to be the last question. What change in the pace of integration will there be, if any, because of President's Kennedy's death and assassination?

King: Fortunately, President Kennedy had the courage to be a friend of civil rights. Not that he always did everything that we wanted him to do on civil rights. But everybody would have to admit that President Kennedy did more, or stood up, I would say, more firmly on civil rights legislation than any president. This was very good for the nation, and I think we will see that more and more in the future. Now, I don't think there will be any blockage, so to speak, in the process. To put it another way, I don't think the pace will slow up because of President Kennedy's tragic assassination. I think Mr. Johnson, his successor, will stand up for civil rights legislation in general and civil rights in particular. He has made that very clear, publicly, and made it clear in the first speech that he made to the nation. He has made it clear to me just a few days ago in a private conversation. He made it clear to all of the heads of civil rights organizations. I don't think there's any doubt abut it that President Johnson plans to stand up for civil rights legislation and he plans to see this bill through, all of the resources he had at his disposal.

I think it points, and this is the final thing that I'd like to say, it points that sometimes a man does more in his death than he could have ever done in life. Sometimes we must in history take an evil situation and wring the good out of it. It may well be that President Kennedy will be able to do more for civil rights in death than he could have ever done in life. For the south, with all of its resistance, has to face the fact now that the man who is fighting to bring about civil rights legislation is one its own native sons. They can no longer argue that he doesn't understand. If they'll listen to his accent and his wife's accent, they know he's from the south. So it may well be that something transforming may happen in this situation. Of course, the other thing is that the Negro is determined more than ever before. I think he will continue to press on so that the pace will not stop. There will be an increased move toward full citizenship for the Negro in America. [APPLAUSE] Miller: So you understand that we must leave now because of the plane schedule. Again, we thank Martin Luther King, Junior, for his presentation and for his forthright answers in this question period. Thank you, sir.